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	<title>Comments on: My friend Raymond&#8230;</title>
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	<description>Views on Technology, IT Operations and Life</description>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://clintsharp.com/my-friend-raymond/comment-page-1/#comment-1037</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clintsharp.com/archives/2005/11/24/my-friend-raymond/#comment-1037</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d love to have a fireant:// pseudo-protocol, myself.  Just some way to offer a FireANT one-click subscription.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d love to have a fireant:// pseudo-protocol, myself.  Just some way to offer a FireANT one-click subscription.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron the Truck Driver</title>
		<link>http://clintsharp.com/my-friend-raymond/comment-page-1/#comment-1031</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron the Truck Driver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clintsharp.com/archives/2005/11/24/my-friend-raymond/#comment-1031</guid>
		<description>Im not sure exactally what the debate is because im not familiar with the language.
but.
I took down my feed xml thing.
Feeds just suck bandwidth.
You ever seen someone with 100+ readers and like 3 comments per post?

What happened to the interaction, reading text, reading comments.
And how many feeds do you really need? And how hard is it to just click onto their page and see whatever there is to see via html?

Feeds work for  video only page, like rocketboom.

AND.. now people age watching vlogs on those little videopod things.. All shrunk down to 3&quot;x3&quot;. 
Seeing video on the web isnt a new thing. I dont understand the hype.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Im not sure exactally what the debate is because im not familiar with the language.<br />
but.<br />
I took down my feed xml thing.<br />
Feeds just suck bandwidth.<br />
You ever seen someone with 100+ readers and like 3 comments per post?</p>
<p>What happened to the interaction, reading text, reading comments.<br />
And how many feeds do you really need? And how hard is it to just click onto their page and see whatever there is to see via html?</p>
<p>Feeds work for  video only page, like rocketboom.</p>
<p>AND.. now people age watching vlogs on those little videopod things.. All shrunk down to 3&#8243;x3&#8243;.<br />
Seeing video on the web isnt a new thing. I dont understand the hype.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://clintsharp.com/my-friend-raymond/comment-page-1/#comment-1029</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Nov 2005 09:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clintsharp.com/archives/2005/11/24/my-friend-raymond/#comment-1029</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry, but not only do I disagree about the value of reference implementations, I don&#039;t see their existence! What is the reference implementation for OPML and RSS? It is extremely useful to have some running code to work against, but unless it&#039;s been built to specification you&#039;ve no means of predicting its behaviour.

Dave may be writing tools, but he&#039;s writing tools that will work with Dave Winer systems (RSS 2.0, OPML, XML-RPC, Frontier/Manilla) rather than anyone else&#039;s. That&#039;s another benefit of specs - you&#039;re not tied to proprietary systems. I&#039;m not actually concerned one way or the other whether Dave develops cool outlining/collaboration tools. What I am bothered about is having to support badly designed formats in tools I write for the Web. Even Dave himself had to write converters for his outliner to handle lists found in the wild, even though they were spec-valid. Work that could have been avoided had there been decent specs. But it&#039;s to be expected - bending a format designed to support simple hierarchical text editor (a 1980&#039;s tool design, no less) out into every possible data application is just plain silly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but not only do I disagree about the value of reference implementations, I don&#8217;t see their existence! What is the reference implementation for OPML and RSS? It is extremely useful to have some running code to work against, but unless it&#8217;s been built to specification you&#8217;ve no means of predicting its behaviour.</p>
<p>Dave may be writing tools, but he&#8217;s writing tools that will work with Dave Winer systems (RSS 2.0, OPML, XML-RPC, Frontier/Manilla) rather than anyone else&#8217;s. That&#8217;s another benefit of specs &#8211; you&#8217;re not tied to proprietary systems. I&#8217;m not actually concerned one way or the other whether Dave develops cool outlining/collaboration tools. What I am bothered about is having to support badly designed formats in tools I write for the Web. Even Dave himself had to write converters for his outliner to handle lists found in the wild, even though they were spec-valid. Work that could have been avoided had there been decent specs. But it&#8217;s to be expected &#8211; bending a format designed to support simple hierarchical text editor (a 1980&#8217;s tool design, no less) out into every possible data application is just plain silly.</p>
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		<title>By: Clint Sharp</title>
		<link>http://clintsharp.com/my-friend-raymond/comment-page-1/#comment-1027</link>
		<dc:creator>Clint Sharp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clintsharp.com/archives/2005/11/24/my-friend-raymond/#comment-1027</guid>
		<description>The problem is, standards and specifications are nice, but in reality nobody ever implements exactly according to the specifications.  The specifications usually allow for ever conceivable use case and every conceivable permutation for the way in which the standard could be used.  What this leads to is long and ardous documents, because it&#039;s easy to plan for everything on paper, but implementing to spec usually requires a lot more effort than simply making it work to do what you want to.  It&#039;s very easy to write a 50 or 100 page document talking about how everyone agrees that data should be exchanged in this format, it&#039;s entirely another to implement it.

HTTP and HTML are largely defined by their reference implementations, which at the time of conception were developed by NCSA and later transitioned to Apache and Netscape.  However, now if we look at standards for web development, it would be nice if everyone complied with the specifications, but the reality is not even Safari and Firefox, which are standards compliant browsers, render everything identically, even though the specifications are quite explicit.  Internet Explorer is another matter, and in the end development requires workaround for different clients.

RSS and OPML have been able to avoid a lot of these problems due to their simplicity.  Also, when there&#039;s a doubt in the specification, which for both is far from complete, there is a reference implementation to turn to to see how you should implement something.

Often times people get together to define a standard that will solve a problem, take for example the Yahoo Media RSS group.  There is a problem with enclosures.  The specification is unclear as to multiple enclosures, and having to have a seperate  for every enclosure isn&#039;t ideal.  However, after a lot of work a specificaction is out there, except there&#039;s no reference implementation and no major adopters, so it isn&#039;t gaining traction.  There has to be an application to go along with the specification or it&#039;s largely meaningless.

 Nobody&#039;s writing software doing the same thing with XHTML formatted lists. The reason OPML is succeeding and will continue to succeed is because Dave Winer is developing software people are using to write outlines and collaboratively share information.  In the end, that&#039;s what matters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is, standards and specifications are nice, but in reality nobody ever implements exactly according to the specifications.  The specifications usually allow for ever conceivable use case and every conceivable permutation for the way in which the standard could be used.  What this leads to is long and ardous documents, because it&#8217;s easy to plan for everything on paper, but implementing to spec usually requires a lot more effort than simply making it work to do what you want to.  It&#8217;s very easy to write a 50 or 100 page document talking about how everyone agrees that data should be exchanged in this format, it&#8217;s entirely another to implement it.</p>
<p>HTTP and HTML are largely defined by their reference implementations, which at the time of conception were developed by NCSA and later transitioned to Apache and Netscape.  However, now if we look at standards for web development, it would be nice if everyone complied with the specifications, but the reality is not even Safari and Firefox, which are standards compliant browsers, render everything identically, even though the specifications are quite explicit.  Internet Explorer is another matter, and in the end development requires workaround for different clients.</p>
<p>RSS and OPML have been able to avoid a lot of these problems due to their simplicity.  Also, when there&#8217;s a doubt in the specification, which for both is far from complete, there is a reference implementation to turn to to see how you should implement something.</p>
<p>Often times people get together to define a standard that will solve a problem, take for example the Yahoo Media RSS group.  There is a problem with enclosures.  The specification is unclear as to multiple enclosures, and having to have a seperate  for every enclosure isn&#8217;t ideal.  However, after a lot of work a specificaction is out there, except there&#8217;s no reference implementation and no major adopters, so it isn&#8217;t gaining traction.  There has to be an application to go along with the specification or it&#8217;s largely meaningless.</p>
<p> Nobody&#8217;s writing software doing the same thing with XHTML formatted lists. The reason OPML is succeeding and will continue to succeed is because Dave Winer is developing software people are using to write outlines and collaboratively share information.  In the end, that&#8217;s what matters.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://clintsharp.com/my-friend-raymond/comment-page-1/#comment-1026</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clintsharp.com/archives/2005/11/24/my-friend-raymond/#comment-1026</guid>
		<description>&quot;The format in the end doesnâ€™t really matter much, itâ€™s just a way to format data. &quot; - I agree entirely. But what does matter is that the tools that are reading it share some set of conventions with those that are writing it. Like you say, if you want to allow users of your kit to use fireant:// there&#039;s no reason not to, assuming that&#039;s all you want. If you want to interoperate with other systems, you may have to go further, perhaps contemplate using an existing standard, or developing a new one.

Atom format was 2 years in the making, RSS 2.0 took about 4, OPML has taked 5 so far. There are (informative) reference implementations for Atom - most notably the validator. But if you follow a good spec you don&#039;t need a validator, it should just work. That&#039;s the whole point. You agree on conventions, and your applications can work together. 

&quot;Why is Microsoft Word the default format for exchanging documents and not OASIS?&quot; - because one is a proprietary word processor application and the other a standards organisation?

What about HTML, HTTP and XML? Proper specs or doesn&#039;t it matter?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The format in the end doesnâ€™t really matter much, itâ€™s just a way to format data. &#8221; &#8211; I agree entirely. But what does matter is that the tools that are reading it share some set of conventions with those that are writing it. Like you say, if you want to allow users of your kit to use fireant:// there&#8217;s no reason not to, assuming that&#8217;s all you want. If you want to interoperate with other systems, you may have to go further, perhaps contemplate using an existing standard, or developing a new one.</p>
<p>Atom format was 2 years in the making, RSS 2.0 took about 4, OPML has taked 5 so far. There are (informative) reference implementations for Atom &#8211; most notably the validator. But if you follow a good spec you don&#8217;t need a validator, it should just work. That&#8217;s the whole point. You agree on conventions, and your applications can work together. </p>
<p>&#8220;Why is Microsoft Word the default format for exchanging documents and not OASIS?&#8221; &#8211; because one is a proprietary word processor application and the other a standards organisation?</p>
<p>What about HTML, HTTP and XML? Proper specs or doesn&#8217;t it matter?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://clintsharp.com/my-friend-raymond/comment-page-1/#comment-1025</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Nov 2005 23:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clintsharp.com/archives/2005/11/24/my-friend-raymond/#comment-1025</guid>
		<description>Agreed on all points! Daniel ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed on all points! Daniel <img src='http://clintsharp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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